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	<title>Comments on: Rainmaking Problem #6:  In Debt and Conflicted</title>
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	<link>http://www.hardingco.com/blog/2008/12/17/rainmaking-problem-6-in-debt-and-conflicted/</link>
	<description>Ford Harding's Blog on Rainmaking and Business Development</description>
	<pubDate>Thu, 18 Mar 2010 00:30:32 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Hardingco Blog &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Rain Making Problem # 8: When Does Mutual Help Cross the Line to Corruption?</title>
		<link>http://www.hardingco.com/blog/2008/12/17/rainmaking-problem-6-in-debt-and-conflicted/comment-page-1/#comment-18874</link>
		<dc:creator>Hardingco Blog &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Rain Making Problem # 8: When Does Mutual Help Cross the Line to Corruption?</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 03 Feb 2009 19:28:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.hardingco.com/blog/2008/12/17/rainmaking-problem-6-in-debt-and-conflicted/#comment-18874</guid>
		<description>[...] In a previous post, an exchange of comments among Andy Hoye, David Harkleroad and me brought to mind an issue that has troubled me over the years. As noted in many posts (see, for example, Mark Buckshon, Bob Burg or Tim Klabunde) on many blogs and as I have described in my books, networking is based on the belief that if you help people, the help will eventually be returned by some of them in the form of new business and referrals. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] In a previous post, an exchange of comments among Andy Hoye, David Harkleroad and me brought to mind an issue that has troubled me over the years. As noted in many posts (see, for example, Mark Buckshon, Bob Burg or Tim Klabunde) on many blogs and as I have described in my books, networking is based on the belief that if you help people, the help will eventually be returned by some of them in the form of new business and referrals. [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Ford Harding</title>
		<link>http://www.hardingco.com/blog/2008/12/17/rainmaking-problem-6-in-debt-and-conflicted/comment-page-1/#comment-17386</link>
		<dc:creator>Ford Harding</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 07 Jan 2009 09:47:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.hardingco.com/blog/2008/12/17/rainmaking-problem-6-in-debt-and-conflicted/#comment-17386</guid>
		<description>Andy

I share David's concern.  Regardless of the intent, the passing of a check is subject to misinterpretation by Bill or by others.  I am not a lawyer, but if Bill worked in the public sector (he doesn't), there might well be legal issues.  The discussion of what are appropriate exchanges of help in business development is a subject for another post.  Thanks for raising the subject.

Ford</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Andy</p>
<p>I share David&#8217;s concern.  Regardless of the intent, the passing of a check is subject to misinterpretation by Bill or by others.  I am not a lawyer, but if Bill worked in the public sector (he doesn&#8217;t), there might well be legal issues.  The discussion of what are appropriate exchanges of help in business development is a subject for another post.  Thanks for raising the subject.</p>
<p>Ford</p>
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		<title>By: Andy Hoye</title>
		<link>http://www.hardingco.com/blog/2008/12/17/rainmaking-problem-6-in-debt-and-conflicted/comment-page-1/#comment-17355</link>
		<dc:creator>Andy Hoye</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 06 Jan 2009 15:29:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.hardingco.com/blog/2008/12/17/rainmaking-problem-6-in-debt-and-conflicted/#comment-17355</guid>
		<description>David and Ford - 

Thanks for your comments.  I had a feeling that the $5,000 would spark some interest.  David - yup, it could be seen that way, but is that all bad?  She's in a jam.  She owes this guy.  They both know that.  And he's slipping.  The $6M in business he sent her almost makes the $5K trivial, but it's large enough to be a kind gesture...the guy is out of work.

And 'washing her hands' is actually part of the effort here.  He's been a problem client.  She's going to give him three leads, with qualifiers.  So if it all fizzles, and he becomes a barista, he can't feel too bad.  The upsides are all good (he gets hired somewhere, possibly sends her more biz...)

- Andy</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>David and Ford - </p>
<p>Thanks for your comments.  I had a feeling that the $5,000 would spark some interest.  David - yup, it could be seen that way, but is that all bad?  She&#8217;s in a jam.  She owes this guy.  They both know that.  And he&#8217;s slipping.  The $6M in business he sent her almost makes the $5K trivial, but it&#8217;s large enough to be a kind gesture&#8230;the guy is out of work.</p>
<p>And &#8216;washing her hands&#8217; is actually part of the effort here.  He&#8217;s been a problem client.  She&#8217;s going to give him three leads, with qualifiers.  So if it all fizzles, and he becomes a barista, he can&#8217;t feel too bad.  The upsides are all good (he gets hired somewhere, possibly sends her more biz&#8230;)</p>
<p>- Andy</p>
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		<title>By: David Harkleroad</title>
		<link>http://www.hardingco.com/blog/2008/12/17/rainmaking-problem-6-in-debt-and-conflicted/comment-page-1/#comment-17352</link>
		<dc:creator>David Harkleroad</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 06 Jan 2009 14:32:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.hardingco.com/blog/2008/12/17/rainmaking-problem-6-in-debt-and-conflicted/#comment-17352</guid>
		<description>I'm not so sure I understand the purpose of the check, which could easily be misconstrued - and not just as payback, as Ford notes.  It could also be seen as a pay off, i.e., she is washing her hands of this relationship...

In our consulting with companies on rewards / compensation structures, we caution that money is a very blunt instrument, and thus has to be used very carefully when delivering messages.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m not so sure I understand the purpose of the check, which could easily be misconstrued - and not just as payback, as Ford notes.  It could also be seen as a pay off, i.e., she is washing her hands of this relationship&#8230;</p>
<p>In our consulting with companies on rewards / compensation structures, we caution that money is a very blunt instrument, and thus has to be used very carefully when delivering messages.</p>
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		<title>By: Ford Harding</title>
		<link>http://www.hardingco.com/blog/2008/12/17/rainmaking-problem-6-in-debt-and-conflicted/comment-page-1/#comment-17351</link>
		<dc:creator>Ford Harding</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 06 Jan 2009 13:52:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.hardingco.com/blog/2008/12/17/rainmaking-problem-6-in-debt-and-conflicted/#comment-17351</guid>
		<description>Andy:

When I summarize a situation in a couple of paragraphs, I know that different readers will fill out the characters in the description on the basis of their personal experiences.  In this case, every reader sees a different Hazel and Bill.  

I make this point, because I suspect that some readers may take strong exception to your recommendation, because they see different Hazels and Bills from the ones you do.  Some Hazels could pull off what your recommend and it would be hopeless for others.  Some Bills would take the medicine, swallow hard, and benefit from it and others would storm from the table in anger, perhaps throwing the check in Hazel's face first. 

Once or twice in my life I've been given some unsolicited, hard advice and it has benefited me greatly, so I like your approach.  It is also true, as Ric Willmot pointed out in his comment, that unsolicited advice  is often unwelcome.  Your Hazel has a strong presence.  Confident, direct and commanding respect, she practically walks out of the page into the restaurant.  For someone like that, this could work well.  It is certainly an option that the real Hazel should consider.  

The $5,000 check has me pondering.  It clearly demonstrates her commitment to Bill and her gratitude.  Does this come across too much as payback?  That raises a larger issue of implicit payback in networking relationships, that  I must cover in another post.  Thanks for sparking the idea.  

It's good to hear from you and to have you weigh in.

Ford Harding</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Andy:</p>
<p>When I summarize a situation in a couple of paragraphs, I know that different readers will fill out the characters in the description on the basis of their personal experiences.  In this case, every reader sees a different Hazel and Bill.  </p>
<p>I make this point, because I suspect that some readers may take strong exception to your recommendation, because they see different Hazels and Bills from the ones you do.  Some Hazels could pull off what your recommend and it would be hopeless for others.  Some Bills would take the medicine, swallow hard, and benefit from it and others would storm from the table in anger, perhaps throwing the check in Hazel&#8217;s face first. </p>
<p>Once or twice in my life I&#8217;ve been given some unsolicited, hard advice and it has benefited me greatly, so I like your approach.  It is also true, as Ric Willmot pointed out in his comment, that unsolicited advice  is often unwelcome.  Your Hazel has a strong presence.  Confident, direct and commanding respect, she practically walks out of the page into the restaurant.  For someone like that, this could work well.  It is certainly an option that the real Hazel should consider.  </p>
<p>The $5,000 check has me pondering.  It clearly demonstrates her commitment to Bill and her gratitude.  Does this come across too much as payback?  That raises a larger issue of implicit payback in networking relationships, that  I must cover in another post.  Thanks for sparking the idea.  </p>
<p>It&#8217;s good to hear from you and to have you weigh in.</p>
<p>Ford Harding</p>
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		<title>By: Andy Hoye</title>
		<link>http://www.hardingco.com/blog/2008/12/17/rainmaking-problem-6-in-debt-and-conflicted/comment-page-1/#comment-17330</link>
		<dc:creator>Andy Hoye</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 06 Jan 2009 02:12:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.hardingco.com/blog/2008/12/17/rainmaking-problem-6-in-debt-and-conflicted/#comment-17330</guid>
		<description>Hazel knows Bill well, and now she needs to share her issues with him completely, including unsolicited feedback designed to help him.  She sets up a two hour lunch at an exclusive restaurant with a private dining room.  She needs to have pre-planned which clients she will refer him to, and tell him, when she calls for the lunch, that during the lunch meeting she will give him three referrals with personal calls.  These need to be clients who could benefit from his principal skills, not those who could best withstand his weaknesses.   At the meeting, she needs to first of all thank him for his work over the years, profusely but professionally, with emphasis on the specific projects that were the most helpful to her.  She needs to be sure he understands and feels her gratitude.  And then she needs to give him a personal check for $5,000.  Or at least put it on the lunch table in an envelope.

Next she needs to review with Bill, very candidly, his weaknesses.  She needs to do this like she would speak to a brother.  Very frank, with examples, and wait and watch until she is certain she is heard.  He may protest a couple of them, but she needs to stay on topic and discount those objections.  This needs to go on until he owns all of them.

Then she needs to offer specific seminars or retreats where he could go to correct those problems.  She needs to get his personal agreement to attend at least two of them, or she will not be referring him anywhere.  Then she re-emphasizes the $5,000 check.

Fiinally she tells him the name of three companies to whom she will make a call.  He needs to know that they will hear the truth from her about his skill set and deficiencies.  He also needs to understand that she will tell them he was a strong supporter of her and she is making this recommendation not only because they will benefit, but because he has been helpful to her and she is returning the favor.  If they ask the right question which is “Would you recommend Bill to us if he had not been so helpful to you?” she needs to be able to reply honestly “Yes, with the qualifications I’ve noted and remedies which he has planned.”  

If he bombs at a good client’s shop, she will be covered somewhat by the qualifiers, because a good interviewer there will address them with Bill during the hiring interview process and they will be in file.

He will be blown away by the $5,000 check, and hopefully her candor, and will continue to be her pal.

Andy Hoye</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hazel knows Bill well, and now she needs to share her issues with him completely, including unsolicited feedback designed to help him.  She sets up a two hour lunch at an exclusive restaurant with a private dining room.  She needs to have pre-planned which clients she will refer him to, and tell him, when she calls for the lunch, that during the lunch meeting she will give him three referrals with personal calls.  These need to be clients who could benefit from his principal skills, not those who could best withstand his weaknesses.   At the meeting, she needs to first of all thank him for his work over the years, profusely but professionally, with emphasis on the specific projects that were the most helpful to her.  She needs to be sure he understands and feels her gratitude.  And then she needs to give him a personal check for $5,000.  Or at least put it on the lunch table in an envelope.</p>
<p>Next she needs to review with Bill, very candidly, his weaknesses.  She needs to do this like she would speak to a brother.  Very frank, with examples, and wait and watch until she is certain she is heard.  He may protest a couple of them, but she needs to stay on topic and discount those objections.  This needs to go on until he owns all of them.</p>
<p>Then she needs to offer specific seminars or retreats where he could go to correct those problems.  She needs to get his personal agreement to attend at least two of them, or she will not be referring him anywhere.  Then she re-emphasizes the $5,000 check.</p>
<p>Fiinally she tells him the name of three companies to whom she will make a call.  He needs to know that they will hear the truth from her about his skill set and deficiencies.  He also needs to understand that she will tell them he was a strong supporter of her and she is making this recommendation not only because they will benefit, but because he has been helpful to her and she is returning the favor.  If they ask the right question which is “Would you recommend Bill to us if he had not been so helpful to you?” she needs to be able to reply honestly “Yes, with the qualifications I’ve noted and remedies which he has planned.”  </p>
<p>If he bombs at a good client’s shop, she will be covered somewhat by the qualifiers, because a good interviewer there will address them with Bill during the hiring interview process and they will be in file.</p>
<p>He will be blown away by the $5,000 check, and hopefully her candor, and will continue to be her pal.</p>
<p>Andy Hoye</p>
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		<title>By: Ford Harding</title>
		<link>http://www.hardingco.com/blog/2008/12/17/rainmaking-problem-6-in-debt-and-conflicted/comment-page-1/#comment-16360</link>
		<dc:creator>Ford Harding</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 19 Dec 2008 02:17:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.hardingco.com/blog/2008/12/17/rainmaking-problem-6-in-debt-and-conflicted/#comment-16360</guid>
		<description>Patrick Kay, a recruiter from Singapore, sent the following:

Dear Ford
 
 As an executive search consultant, this is my suggestion:
 
 1) While Hazel is indebted to her client Bill, she should never 
recommend someone whose work is not up to par - it is just not right.  Doing this only sow seeds of future embarrassment for whichever client she recommends Bill for.
 
 2) What she could do is highlight Bill's strengths to her clients whom she thinks can be a potential hirer for Bill, and also highlight some of the issues she perceive regarding Bill. It is up to the hirer to make their assessment. Sometimes what Hazel view as a weakness may not be that big an issue with a hirer. Also, the hirer will/should do their own background checks and are caveat emptor. They could even structure a 'support' team to 'fill the weakness' gap if they deem 
 that Bill's strengths are what they need.
 
&gt; cheers
&gt; pat, from Singapore
&gt; 
 Patrick 

Many thanks for the recruiters perspective.

Ford Harding</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Patrick Kay, a recruiter from Singapore, sent the following:</p>
<p>Dear Ford</p>
<p> As an executive search consultant, this is my suggestion:</p>
<p> 1) While Hazel is indebted to her client Bill, she should never<br />
recommend someone whose work is not up to par - it is just not right.  Doing this only sow seeds of future embarrassment for whichever client she recommends Bill for.</p>
<p> 2) What she could do is highlight Bill&#8217;s strengths to her clients whom she thinks can be a potential hirer for Bill, and also highlight some of the issues she perceive regarding Bill. It is up to the hirer to make their assessment. Sometimes what Hazel view as a weakness may not be that big an issue with a hirer. Also, the hirer will/should do their own background checks and are caveat emptor. They could even structure a &#8217;support&#8217; team to &#8216;fill the weakness&#8217; gap if they deem<br />
 that Bill&#8217;s strengths are what they need.</p>
<p>> cheers<br />
> pat, from Singapore<br />
><br />
 Patrick </p>
<p>Many thanks for the recruiters perspective.</p>
<p>Ford Harding</p>
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		<title>By: Ford Harding</title>
		<link>http://www.hardingco.com/blog/2008/12/17/rainmaking-problem-6-in-debt-and-conflicted/comment-page-1/#comment-16298</link>
		<dc:creator>Ford Harding</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 17 Dec 2008 22:36:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.hardingco.com/blog/2008/12/17/rainmaking-problem-6-in-debt-and-conflicted/#comment-16298</guid>
		<description>Ric

There is a lot of wisdom here.  Most clients are plenty sophisticated at hiring people and capable of making their own decisions.  The words used to make the referral can be highly positive or cautiously so, letting the client know how strong your endorsement is.

Whether or not to give unsolicited feedback depends on Bill.  I have gotten such feedback that has been a real help, as I am sure many others have.  I agree that unsolicited feedback is often, very often, for the benefit of the giver's ego, but don't think it need always be so.  It is a caution well worth making, nevertheless, and a valuable balance to the other comments on this post.  I will remind myself of what you said whenever tempted to give unasked for advice.

Thanks for that and your thoughtfulness.

Ford Harding</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ric</p>
<p>There is a lot of wisdom here.  Most clients are plenty sophisticated at hiring people and capable of making their own decisions.  The words used to make the referral can be highly positive or cautiously so, letting the client know how strong your endorsement is.</p>
<p>Whether or not to give unsolicited feedback depends on Bill.  I have gotten such feedback that has been a real help, as I am sure many others have.  I agree that unsolicited feedback is often, very often, for the benefit of the giver&#8217;s ego, but don&#8217;t think it need always be so.  It is a caution well worth making, nevertheless, and a valuable balance to the other comments on this post.  I will remind myself of what you said whenever tempted to give unasked for advice.</p>
<p>Thanks for that and your thoughtfulness.</p>
<p>Ford Harding</p>
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		<title>By: Ric Willmot</title>
		<link>http://www.hardingco.com/blog/2008/12/17/rainmaking-problem-6-in-debt-and-conflicted/comment-page-1/#comment-16293</link>
		<dc:creator>Ric Willmot</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 17 Dec 2008 21:33:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.hardingco.com/blog/2008/12/17/rainmaking-problem-6-in-debt-and-conflicted/#comment-16293</guid>
		<description>The responses are fine. A few additional points:

1. Never assume the client is damaged
2. Focus on observed behaviour
3. It's not the referrers role to cover corporate governance
4. Never provide unsolicited feedback

Bill has certain skills and attributes that are valuable to employers, else why was he in the previous role? Why is it that the faults we so easily see in others also hides their strengths? He has value to offer.

Consider only observable facts, interpretations of the facts will always bring us unglued.

Make the introductions and then allow the two parties to engage in their decisions as they do with any other business relationship. We are not required to make the world perfect for others.

No need to provide Bill with feedback about his performance or behaviour unless he asks for it. Unsolicited feedback is always given for the ego of the giver not for the benefit of the receiver.

Make the introductions and help Bill in appropriate ways that comfortably assuage our considerations - and then get out of the way. Your clients have hired thousands of people; they probably know how to engage in behavioural interviewing techniques and how to obtain references on past performance.

For all of the faults that can be seen in Bill; he may well be a standout in his field compared to his peers. We could be doing a disservice by not recommending him. Good people are hard to find.

Rgds,
Ric Willmot
W: www.executivewisdom.com
B: www.ricwillmot.com</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The responses are fine. A few additional points:</p>
<p>1. Never assume the client is damaged<br />
2. Focus on observed behaviour<br />
3. It&#8217;s not the referrers role to cover corporate governance<br />
4. Never provide unsolicited feedback</p>
<p>Bill has certain skills and attributes that are valuable to employers, else why was he in the previous role? Why is it that the faults we so easily see in others also hides their strengths? He has value to offer.</p>
<p>Consider only observable facts, interpretations of the facts will always bring us unglued.</p>
<p>Make the introductions and then allow the two parties to engage in their decisions as they do with any other business relationship. We are not required to make the world perfect for others.</p>
<p>No need to provide Bill with feedback about his performance or behaviour unless he asks for it. Unsolicited feedback is always given for the ego of the giver not for the benefit of the receiver.</p>
<p>Make the introductions and help Bill in appropriate ways that comfortably assuage our considerations - and then get out of the way. Your clients have hired thousands of people; they probably know how to engage in behavioural interviewing techniques and how to obtain references on past performance.</p>
<p>For all of the faults that can be seen in Bill; he may well be a standout in his field compared to his peers. We could be doing a disservice by not recommending him. Good people are hard to find.</p>
<p>Rgds,<br />
Ric Willmot<br />
W: <a href="http://www.executivewisdom.com" rel="nofollow">http://www.executivewisdom.com</a><br />
B: <a href="http://www.ricwillmot.com" rel="nofollow">http://www.ricwillmot.com</a></p>
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		<title>By: Martin Stockdale</title>
		<link>http://www.hardingco.com/blog/2008/12/17/rainmaking-problem-6-in-debt-and-conflicted/comment-page-1/#comment-16290</link>
		<dc:creator>Martin Stockdale</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 17 Dec 2008 21:10:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.hardingco.com/blog/2008/12/17/rainmaking-problem-6-in-debt-and-conflicted/#comment-16290</guid>
		<description>In my past I was "Bill" and much to my personal detriment no one was upfront and honest in assessing my strenghts and weaknesses. As a result, I stumbled about for some time until I did get that feedback. It made me a far better salesman and my career has flourished because of it.

In Bill's case, it sounds like he is further along in his career that I was, but I would have to believe that an honest discussion between he and Hazel is the best thing that can happen to him.

If Bill does land a new position with the power to refer business to Hazel, but was offended by the discussion he had with her and no longer chooses to do so, at least she can rest well at night knowing her decision was the right one. Giving up business is a very hard thing to do, but doing the right thing is always the best practice.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In my past I was &#8220;Bill&#8221; and much to my personal detriment no one was upfront and honest in assessing my strenghts and weaknesses. As a result, I stumbled about for some time until I did get that feedback. It made me a far better salesman and my career has flourished because of it.</p>
<p>In Bill&#8217;s case, it sounds like he is further along in his career that I was, but I would have to believe that an honest discussion between he and Hazel is the best thing that can happen to him.</p>
<p>If Bill does land a new position with the power to refer business to Hazel, but was offended by the discussion he had with her and no longer chooses to do so, at least she can rest well at night knowing her decision was the right one. Giving up business is a very hard thing to do, but doing the right thing is always the best practice.</p>
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