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	<title>Comments on: Rain Making Problem #16:  When You Can&#8217;t Give Back</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.hardingco.com/blog/2009/05/13/rain-making-problem-16-when-you-cant-give-back/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.hardingco.com/blog/2009/05/13/rain-making-problem-16-when-you-cant-give-back/</link>
	<description>Mimi Spangler&#039;s Blog on Rainmaking and Business Development</description>
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		<title>By: Ford Harding</title>
		<link>http://www.hardingco.com/blog/2009/05/13/rain-making-problem-16-when-you-cant-give-back/comment-page-1/#comment-25737</link>
		<dc:creator>Ford Harding</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 15 May 2009 17:51:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.hardingco.com/blog/2009/05/13/rain-making-problem-16-when-you-cant-give-back/#comment-25737</guid>
		<description>Larry sent this note to all who commented:

Ford, 

Thank you for posting my prior email for discussion.   I truly appreciate all of the helpful comments and suggestions that you and each of the commentators provided.  They were very helpful and I anticipate making good use of them.  
 
Once again, thanks to you and each of the commentators.  
 
“Larry”</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Larry sent this note to all who commented:</p>
<p>Ford, </p>
<p>Thank you for posting my prior email for discussion.   I truly appreciate all of the helpful comments and suggestions that you and each of the commentators provided.  They were very helpful and I anticipate making good use of them.  </p>
<p>Once again, thanks to you and each of the commentators.  </p>
<p>“Larry”</p>
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		<title>By: Ford Harding</title>
		<link>http://www.hardingco.com/blog/2009/05/13/rain-making-problem-16-when-you-cant-give-back/comment-page-1/#comment-25649</link>
		<dc:creator>Ford Harding</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 14 May 2009 15:58:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.hardingco.com/blog/2009/05/13/rain-making-problem-16-when-you-cant-give-back/#comment-25649</guid>
		<description>Steve:

That&#039;s a helpful example.  Thanks.

Ford Harding</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Steve:</p>
<p>That&#8217;s a helpful example.  Thanks.</p>
<p>Ford Harding</p>
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		<title>By: Steve Shu</title>
		<link>http://www.hardingco.com/blog/2009/05/13/rain-making-problem-16-when-you-cant-give-back/comment-page-1/#comment-25646</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve Shu</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 14 May 2009 14:42:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.hardingco.com/blog/2009/05/13/rain-making-problem-16-when-you-cant-give-back/#comment-25646</guid>
		<description>Ford,

Regarding my reference to &quot;something else of value&quot;, I dunno. Have to get creative here. I have in the past sponsored tables at private economic forecast luncheons for my clients. I set it up such that the referrer would have an opportunity to meet some of my other clients in the same context with the clients that the referrer brought me into. Thus, while I&#039;m not necessarily giving the referrer a direct referral, I&#039;m giving him an opportunity to develop rapport with some people that spend consulting money with me and make his own case.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ford,</p>
<p>Regarding my reference to &#8220;something else of value&#8221;, I dunno. Have to get creative here. I have in the past sponsored tables at private economic forecast luncheons for my clients. I set it up such that the referrer would have an opportunity to meet some of my other clients in the same context with the clients that the referrer brought me into. Thus, while I&#8217;m not necessarily giving the referrer a direct referral, I&#8217;m giving him an opportunity to develop rapport with some people that spend consulting money with me and make his own case.</p>
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		<title>By: Ford Harding</title>
		<link>http://www.hardingco.com/blog/2009/05/13/rain-making-problem-16-when-you-cant-give-back/comment-page-1/#comment-25639</link>
		<dc:creator>Ford Harding</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 14 May 2009 12:45:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.hardingco.com/blog/2009/05/13/rain-making-problem-16-when-you-cant-give-back/#comment-25639</guid>
		<description>Mark:

The client&#039;s best interests must always come first and, as you say, when well served as demonstrated by the praise given by former clients are the most important motivation when choosing whom to refer.  In many cases that is all one needs to get.  It is not, of course, the only reason people network.  There is one thing that makes me feel better than a wow report from a client about someone I referred.  That&#039;s getting a referral from that person, too.  The best networkers, in my experience, are biased towards helping people and give a lot without any expectation of return.  But they are also savvy about their giving to increase the chances of a return.  Yes, there is a calculated element to this, but it isn&#039;t mercenary, devious or totally self serving.  It&#039;s business, even enlightened business.

Good to hear from you.

Ford Harding</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mark:</p>
<p>The client&#8217;s best interests must always come first and, as you say, when well served as demonstrated by the praise given by former clients are the most important motivation when choosing whom to refer.  In many cases that is all one needs to get.  It is not, of course, the only reason people network.  There is one thing that makes me feel better than a wow report from a client about someone I referred.  That&#8217;s getting a referral from that person, too.  The best networkers, in my experience, are biased towards helping people and give a lot without any expectation of return.  But they are also savvy about their giving to increase the chances of a return.  Yes, there is a calculated element to this, but it isn&#8217;t mercenary, devious or totally self serving.  It&#8217;s business, even enlightened business.</p>
<p>Good to hear from you.</p>
<p>Ford Harding</p>
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		<title>By: Mark Buckshon</title>
		<link>http://www.hardingco.com/blog/2009/05/13/rain-making-problem-16-when-you-cant-give-back/comment-page-1/#comment-25634</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark Buckshon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 14 May 2009 11:09:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.hardingco.com/blog/2009/05/13/rain-making-problem-16-when-you-cant-give-back/#comment-25634</guid>
		<description>There are other elements to this issue besides the perception of respect and the need to fairly acknowledge your situation.  It is the unstated but obviously important element:  How well do you serve the referred client, and how much feedback do you and your referred clients provide to your referral source?
I think nothing makes a referring individual feel better than hearing from the prson he or she referred the &quot;wow&quot; report -- how great the new service provider is.  This essential fact (besides enhancing good will with the referring person) also provides him/her with real value -- because now he is likely to be even more trusted and respected by everyone involved.
Quid pro quo is part of the story (and a valuable one, of course), but feedback and your own great work often provide the referring person enough value that direct reciprocation isn&#039;t that essential to the story.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There are other elements to this issue besides the perception of respect and the need to fairly acknowledge your situation.  It is the unstated but obviously important element:  How well do you serve the referred client, and how much feedback do you and your referred clients provide to your referral source?<br />
I think nothing makes a referring individual feel better than hearing from the prson he or she referred the &#8220;wow&#8221; report &#8212; how great the new service provider is.  This essential fact (besides enhancing good will with the referring person) also provides him/her with real value &#8212; because now he is likely to be even more trusted and respected by everyone involved.<br />
Quid pro quo is part of the story (and a valuable one, of course), but feedback and your own great work often provide the referring person enough value that direct reciprocation isn&#8217;t that essential to the story.</p>
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		<title>By: Ford Harding</title>
		<link>http://www.hardingco.com/blog/2009/05/13/rain-making-problem-16-when-you-cant-give-back/comment-page-1/#comment-25611</link>
		<dc:creator>Ford Harding</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 14 May 2009 02:56:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.hardingco.com/blog/2009/05/13/rain-making-problem-16-when-you-cant-give-back/#comment-25611</guid>
		<description>Ken

Thank you for this comment and its clear statement of your approach to networking.  I too have people I give referrals to and get none in return and I don&#039;t believe you can force things.  Still, my approach differs from yours-I do look for some sign that the other person recognize that I, too, need some help in making my way through the world.  I would feel uncomfortable taking the leads if I felt I was less than clear about my limited ability to give leads back.  That doesn&#039;t make me right or you wrong, and I appreciate your putting your approach in a comment.

Ford Harding</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ken</p>
<p>Thank you for this comment and its clear statement of your approach to networking.  I too have people I give referrals to and get none in return and I don&#8217;t believe you can force things.  Still, my approach differs from yours-I do look for some sign that the other person recognize that I, too, need some help in making my way through the world.  I would feel uncomfortable taking the leads if I felt I was less than clear about my limited ability to give leads back.  That doesn&#8217;t make me right or you wrong, and I appreciate your putting your approach in a comment.</p>
<p>Ford Harding</p>
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		<title>By: Ken Lizotte</title>
		<link>http://www.hardingco.com/blog/2009/05/13/rain-making-problem-16-when-you-cant-give-back/comment-page-1/#comment-25596</link>
		<dc:creator>Ken Lizotte</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 13 May 2009 23:44:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.hardingco.com/blog/2009/05/13/rain-making-problem-16-when-you-cant-give-back/#comment-25596</guid>
		<description>I agree with those who feel referrals should not be quid pro quo. That only strains the relationship and the referral itself. I have people I constantly refer to yet who NEVER refer back to me, yet I keep referring them. I also get referrals from folks who constantly refer others to me. You just have to go with what&#039;s natural and have the attitude that karma will take care of everybody. Once you try to break the karma chain and FORCE things, the system breaks down. Take the referrals and don&#039;t worry about it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree with those who feel referrals should not be quid pro quo. That only strains the relationship and the referral itself. I have people I constantly refer to yet who NEVER refer back to me, yet I keep referring them. I also get referrals from folks who constantly refer others to me. You just have to go with what&#8217;s natural and have the attitude that karma will take care of everybody. Once you try to break the karma chain and FORCE things, the system breaks down. Take the referrals and don&#8217;t worry about it.</p>
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		<title>By: Ford Harding</title>
		<link>http://www.hardingco.com/blog/2009/05/13/rain-making-problem-16-when-you-cant-give-back/comment-page-1/#comment-25589</link>
		<dc:creator>Ford Harding</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 13 May 2009 22:17:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.hardingco.com/blog/2009/05/13/rain-making-problem-16-when-you-cant-give-back/#comment-25589</guid>
		<description>Ian:

These are all good points.  Imbalance in the ability to help between two network contacts is a complex subject, as you suggest.  I suspect that someone senior to Larry in the firm is directing where referrals go.  Larry is trying to build his practice, but doesn&#039;t control referrals to the kind of firm that is giving him leads.  

I endorse the kind of frank discussion you mention.  Sometimes it takes three or four meetings with a person to figure out how you can help them.  The demonstration of a sense of urgency and obligation to give back in some form the help a person receives is one of the things  you look for in a network contact.  If they don&#039;t  have that sense at some level, they usually don&#039;t make good contacts.  We must show it to those who help us.  I can be infinitely patient with someone who tries to keep the help-giving mutual.  It&#039;s when they show no sign of trying that I begin to look elsewhere.  Your response reeks of sincere effort.  That&#039;s one of the things that makes you a good networker.

Ford Harding</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ian:</p>
<p>These are all good points.  Imbalance in the ability to help between two network contacts is a complex subject, as you suggest.  I suspect that someone senior to Larry in the firm is directing where referrals go.  Larry is trying to build his practice, but doesn&#8217;t control referrals to the kind of firm that is giving him leads.  </p>
<p>I endorse the kind of frank discussion you mention.  Sometimes it takes three or four meetings with a person to figure out how you can help them.  The demonstration of a sense of urgency and obligation to give back in some form the help a person receives is one of the things  you look for in a network contact.  If they don&#8217;t  have that sense at some level, they usually don&#8217;t make good contacts.  We must show it to those who help us.  I can be infinitely patient with someone who tries to keep the help-giving mutual.  It&#8217;s when they show no sign of trying that I begin to look elsewhere.  Your response reeks of sincere effort.  That&#8217;s one of the things that makes you a good networker.</p>
<p>Ford Harding</p>
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		<title>By: Ian Brodie</title>
		<link>http://www.hardingco.com/blog/2009/05/13/rain-making-problem-16-when-you-cant-give-back/comment-page-1/#comment-25576</link>
		<dc:creator>Ian Brodie</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 13 May 2009 18:57:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.hardingco.com/blog/2009/05/13/rain-making-problem-16-when-you-cant-give-back/#comment-25576</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m a little intrigued that the referrer made it so clear that he expected something in return. I may be misreading the way you described this - but that sounds quite forward and transactional to me. 

If the other guy is &quot;on the ball&quot; he should realise that you will already have established referral relationships with other similar service providers to him. His strategy should be to figure out how to dislodge your other referral partners (who, I assume are also referring to you) or get in as an additional partner - rather than just assuming you will be able to immediately reciprocate. If he simply refers more to you, that could lead to replacement of one of your existing partners. Or perhaps he can offer services in a niche that others can&#039;t - that would lead to referrals for that niche initially - and then perhaps more over time.

It&#039;s also worth bearing in mind that while you might not be able to refer the same volume back to him; that may still be OK in his eyes - he may get &quot;more&quot; from each referral if they result in large pieces of work or longstanding relationships. I find, for example, that accountants are often able to refer more volume-wise to lawyers - but that a referral to an accountant often gives them them a client for life rather than a one-off transaction.

I know it feels uncomfortable, but I&#039;ve found that if you gird your loins you can begin to have a straight discussion with the referrer about what you can feasibly do for them. You can clarify your current position and have a creative discussion about what might work for them and how you could have a productive relationship. You might find there are things you could do for them, or different types of referral (for exampel to other introducers) that may be just as valuable. You can&#039;t figure this out on your own - you need to talk to them.

Ian</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m a little intrigued that the referrer made it so clear that he expected something in return. I may be misreading the way you described this &#8211; but that sounds quite forward and transactional to me. </p>
<p>If the other guy is &#8220;on the ball&#8221; he should realise that you will already have established referral relationships with other similar service providers to him. His strategy should be to figure out how to dislodge your other referral partners (who, I assume are also referring to you) or get in as an additional partner &#8211; rather than just assuming you will be able to immediately reciprocate. If he simply refers more to you, that could lead to replacement of one of your existing partners. Or perhaps he can offer services in a niche that others can&#8217;t &#8211; that would lead to referrals for that niche initially &#8211; and then perhaps more over time.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s also worth bearing in mind that while you might not be able to refer the same volume back to him; that may still be OK in his eyes &#8211; he may get &#8220;more&#8221; from each referral if they result in large pieces of work or longstanding relationships. I find, for example, that accountants are often able to refer more volume-wise to lawyers &#8211; but that a referral to an accountant often gives them them a client for life rather than a one-off transaction.</p>
<p>I know it feels uncomfortable, but I&#8217;ve found that if you gird your loins you can begin to have a straight discussion with the referrer about what you can feasibly do for them. You can clarify your current position and have a creative discussion about what might work for them and how you could have a productive relationship. You might find there are things you could do for them, or different types of referral (for exampel to other introducers) that may be just as valuable. You can&#8217;t figure this out on your own &#8211; you need to talk to them.</p>
<p>Ian</p>
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		<title>By: Ford Harding</title>
		<link>http://www.hardingco.com/blog/2009/05/13/rain-making-problem-16-when-you-cant-give-back/comment-page-1/#comment-25575</link>
		<dc:creator>Ford Harding</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 13 May 2009 18:56:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.hardingco.com/blog/2009/05/13/rain-making-problem-16-when-you-cant-give-back/#comment-25575</guid>
		<description>Judy:

I agree completely, but if someone is hoping for leads--with no quid pro quo or expectation of immediate referral--and you believe you can&#039;t or you won&#039;t refer them business ever, what should you do?  

1) Go on accepting, without explanation
2) Explain and hope for the best
3) Something else

Ford Harding</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Judy:</p>
<p>I agree completely, but if someone is hoping for leads&#8211;with no quid pro quo or expectation of immediate referral&#8211;and you believe you can&#8217;t or you won&#8217;t refer them business ever, what should you do?  </p>
<p>1) Go on accepting, without explanation<br />
2) Explain and hope for the best<br />
3) Something else</p>
<p>Ford Harding</p>
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